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How are you going to land your dream job? I’m Diana Jordon with MBA Podcaster. And in this show, we’re going to pull back the curtain on the recruitment process. We’ll hear from Dr. Jim Waldroop who developed Career Leader—a self-assessment tool which he says is best used the first year of the MBA. “Think about what you want seven years out; think about what you need to learn to get there, and then do what you need to do.”

And we’ll hear from Greg Ruf whose MBA focus is a pipeline of resumes to hiring companies of the MBA world. “It’s not hard to find an intelligent one-dimensional person. What is really difficult is to find a very intelligent multi-dimensional person.”

Not every company hires MBA graduates the same way. Meet Kate Aiken, Senior Director of College Recruiting for Gap Inc. “We absolutely are open to speaking to the MBA students who track us down; who’ve done their research on the company and know how to present themselves. They can do quite well. But it, definitely, requites driving the boat yourself.”

Hugh Karseras wrote a manual for MBA graduates called “From New Recruit to High Flyer”. “If you look at the population of boardrooms, you’ll see it’s very, very replete with MBA’s. So, it’s certainly a very well-recognized and a very well-rewarded degree to have.”

You have a dream job in mind—a dream life. And that takes sacrifice, and time, and money. And it takes research and planning. You also need to know yourself quite well, so you move swiftly along your journey with few—if any—missteps. Good news—if you’re in an MBA program right now, you’re in hot, hot, hot demand! That’s from Greg Ruf, the CEO of MBA Focus which gets the resumes of 23,000 first- and second-year MBA students to the hiring companies of the MBA world. “It’s a perfect time. You couldn’t hit the market at a better time. I mean it’s really good. Like last year, the number of firms that requested the resumes of students from ’04-’05 to ’05-’06 academic year went up about 30%. This year, from ’05-’06 to ’06-’07 has gone up about another 30%. So, you really hit the market at a perfect time and I think it’s going to continue. What we’ve seen in the last couple of years—this is really interesting—is that, for instance, there are a lot of very old-line industries that are now getting into heavy, heavy MBA recruiting. For instance—retail—we’re seeing a lot of the major retail programs. I’m headquartered in Columbus, Ohio with Limited Brands. And they’ve created a program where, historically, they would hire, as an example, a dozen—a handful—half a dozen MBA’s. Last year, they hired over 50 and, this year, they want to double that. So, now you have a company like Limited Brand, a retailer—I mean there are a number of firms that the numbers are very similar—that is hiring equal numbers that the big investment banks and big consulting firms were hiring in the 90’s and 80’s. You also have insurance, for instance. Insurance firms, in general, used to hire a very small number of MBA’s. We’re seeing all the big names in insurance are building programs where they want to hire 25, 50, 75, 100 MBA’s. Now, I don’t think that’s going to go away. It’s the same with KPMG, for example, who has built a wonderful program with people with financial backgrounds into their business. They’re going to hire probably 130, 140 MBA’s. These aren’t .com types of businesses where the bubble’s just going to burst. When the economy goes down, we’re going to hire less. But we’re really building these beautiful pipelines into these sorts of traditional industries that weren’t big MBA hiring. I think MBA’s are going to be hot for the next 10 to 15 years.”

Even with a hot market, the creator of Career Leader, Dr. Jim Waldroop, says it’s best to start off knowing exactly where you’re headed. “I’m a big believer in getting it right from the beginning. And, in this case, the beginning to me means during the first year, because your summer internship, presuming that you have one, sends a signal to potential recruiters for the second year. If you can get that going in the right direction, more or less, then you’ll be that much farther ahead.”

What is Career Leader?

Career Leader is an on-line self-assessment tool that assesses an individual’s interests, and motivators, and abilities as they relate to careers in business or other organizations. And having done that, it compares the person to 30 different algorithms for different careers—in other words, the model, perfect investment banker; the perfect production and operations manager; the perfect supply chain manager and so forth. And it tells them which ones are the best matches. The program is used by about 300 MBA programs and corporations worldwide including, most recently, Microsoft and AOL. And it’s a good way to figure out what you might want to do and what kind of organization or culture you might want to do it in.”

How can MBA applicants or students start planning now to launch a successful career? Greg Ruf with MBA Focus: “I think one, really sitting down and saying, ‘What do I want to do post-MBA? Why am I getting my MBA? What are my career aspirations?’ And then, once they figure that out and get a very crystal clear idea of what they want to do post-MBA, research the MBA programs that feed most heavily into those careers. I think every MBA program—or at least the top-100-ranked MBA programs—lists on their career services website as part of their MBA programs the number of companies that recruit their students. And most of the time, they will also list how many students were hired by that firm in the previous year or the previous two years or something like that. So, it gives you a pretty good idea of where the pipeline lies.”

Hugh Karseras, the author of “From New Recruit to High Flyer” says you are most likely to see recruiters on the campuses of these first-tier schools. “The groups that would typically appear in there would be The Harvard Business School, Wharton, University of Pennsylvania, MIT, Sloan School—Stanford is always up there—University of Chicago, Kellogg, Columbia, and in Europe INSEAD and LBS. Those are, typically, the first-tier schools that would appear on most of the main recruit’s primary list. There are plenty of other very good schools—Fuqua at Duke is another one, Darden at Virginia, University of Michigan, Stern at NYU and the Yale Management School. I probably wouldn’t put them in the first tier, but they’re still very good schools that get a lot of attention from the recruiters.”

But some companies like Gap Inc. don’t always hit campuses to recruit. Kate Aiken is Senior Director of College Recruiting for Gap Inc. “You really do need to think outside the box in terms of approaching a company like ours. We are not necessarily on campus in September promoting our rotational program, because at Gap, for example, our options for MBA’s are broader than that. We don’t have a particular program. So, students need to be absolutely leveraging their network and connecting with an alumni that might already be working at Gap to explore what our opportunities are and to build bridges with people here so that they can have their foot in the door when jobs are open to interview.”

Because of this hot MBA market, Ruf says that first-year students may feel more pressure to commit to an internship or even to a job. “What we’re seeing is that when demand for MBA’s increases, recruitment becomes much more first-year oriented for summer internships. So, what we’re seeing is that you have a number of first-years that will do 10 or 15 interviews with different firms and then pick their summer internship. Historically, that same person would come out—and maybe or maybe not have an offer from their summer internship—but then interview with another 10 to 15 firms for their second-year recruiting for a full-time opportunity. When recruiting is really hot, emphasis really shifts to first-year recruiting. As a matter of fact, Stamford just did a survey that about 63% of students that were coming out of their summer internship were actually given solid job offers out of it. So, what happens is these newly second-year students who have just finished their summer internships are coming out. They feel very good. ‘I like x, y, z firm. I like the internship. I feel pretty good.’ But let’s look at a, b, c, and d, e, f also. But what they’re not doing is they’re not going to 15 different interviews. They’re going to two or three very selected interviews which means for firms, on the other hand, if they’re not really creating a good supply of potential candidates from their summer internship program, are going to be left in the cold this year and next year. The emphasis is on first year. So, a student needs to get in there the first year and really start researching and interviewing. You’re sort of playing the field your first year in recruiting and probably less so in your second year. If you like the summer internship, you might just say, ‘Hey, well, I like x, y, z. So, I’ll just maybe try 2 firms that I’ll interview with versus 15,’ or something like that.”

Aiken with Gap sounds a warning to MBA students. “Actually, one of the challenges is that I see many of the MBA schools today have a heavy, heavy emphasis on corporate recruiting. It starts very early. It starts the first week of school from what I’ve seen from some of the schools we partner with. So, my advice would be: Try not to get too sucked up in the activities of recruiting. Obviously, you need to have your toes in the water. You need to be exploring—I would say devoting five to ten hours a week probably to exploring your career options and networking within the companies and the industries you’re interested in. So, students in their first year should probably be looking. For some of the traditional MBA channels, I think you really start looking for your internship in the fall. Companies like ours, where maybe we try to do a little bit more just-in-time hiring, we start interviewing candidates for internships in January and February.”

Take charge of your career, says Waldroop, who created Career Leader. “Anybody who puts their career in somebody else’s hands is absolutely crazy, because that person—it could be me, and I’m good, and I’ve done it for a long time—but you know what? I’m not going to be the one who’s doing your job for the next 20 years. And I feel exactly the same way about depending on on-campus recruiting. The company you want may not come, or they may come and you’re number six on their list but they only hire five people. I think it’s just terrifically important for people to take responsibility for their own careers and make that happen. And that’s true forever.”

Networking is one answer. Ruf with MBA Focus explains. “The demand right now for MBA’s is as hot as it was in the late 90’s and it’s really, really high. So, it’s not difficult for candidates to find opportunities because, especially, the moment they hit campus their first year, if it’s a traditional two-year program, companies are going to be seeking them out. And I think a lot of it is just networking and research. If you’re a first-year student or an incoming first-year student talk with first-year class or the second-year class; talk with students that are a few years older. Most of the MBA programs have very well-put-together alumni referral programs for networking purposes on careers and not to say, ‘Hey, can you get me a job with your firm?’ but ‘Can you help me understand investment banking? Is this a career that I’m interested in?’ or ‘What are the right firms for investment banking or consulting or consumer products?’ or something like that.”

Hugh Karseras explains the nuances of networking. “The ironic thing is there’s no question that networks are important and that people who develop a lot of relationships are better positioned. The key is how you go about building them. I think the real lesson is that the only way to do it is to focus on real relationships—building relationships. You want to be thinking about networking outlets that engender an opportunity to really get to know somebody and for them to really get to know you. And so, I’m saying that it’s important to go to all the recruiting events where they have the presentations and you can go and have a few drinks afterwards. But you’ve got a lot of people often circling around a few representatives from the company; trying to ask one or two questions and get their face seen. I think that’s a widely ineffective way to get your network relationships built. I would tend to prefer things where you can get involved in dinners. I know, when I was at business school, we had a lot of recruiting dinners which were a much smaller community of people that were invited. And the ratio of recruiters to students was much higher, and that really did allow the opportunity, over the course of a few hours, to really get to know somebody and for them to get to know you. And I think that is when people say, ‘Yes, I went to dinner with this guy and I thought he or she was a very good character. This is the kind of person we want in our organization.’ That’s really where networking comes to the floor.”

You must know yourself and what you want. Waldroop says taking a test like Career Leader can give you solid direction. “I think of the results of a test like that as being something like a shopping list. I want to buy a career that has lots of prestige, and intellectual challenge, and money, and the opportunity to manage people. So, you go shopping for the career and it’s easier that way to figure out what fits your bill.”

How do you differentiate yourself from other MBA students? Karseras says that is vital. “You have to try and find a way to differentiate yourself from the crowd. One element is actually doing very well in your school work. You need to be a real high flyer. A lot of the schools don’t even make their grades public. So, that really requires winning some of the awards and the honors which is, obviously, very difficult. So, there’s an academic route to differentiation. How you go about recruiting—can you get outside of the net that recruits through the business schools? Can you get relationships which aren’t, necessarily, built up through these people coming to campus that will give you an in-road into those companies? Differentiation is definitely one key element. The second is to be disciplined and patient. I know there are a lot of people that come into business school very, very hungry and very, very ambitious in their career and can’t wait to sort of get that dream job. And, sometimes, they just go a little bit overboard in their approach. Maintain patience and discipline; don’t go crazy in trying to prove yourself to the recruiters. There are clear boundaries in which you have to operate. And the third one is, ultimately, to get that job, you’ve got to demonstrate that you are suitable. So, that requires two things. It requires that you understand exactly what kind of firm you are best suited to and what kind of industry. And, are you then able to demonstrate that to the recruiters? And that often requires a lot of research. It’s always very impressive when you have a candidate who looks thoroughly, thoroughly prepared and really knows their stuff.”

Personal relationships are key. Aiken with Gap: “We found that MBA students who leverage their alumni networks tend to make a lot of progress because most MBA graduates—and I’m an MBA graduate myself and I get two or three inquires a year from people who are attending my program where I got my MBA—reach out to me to say, ‘I’d love to learn more about the industry of retail,’ or ‘I’d love to learn more about what you do. Can I request a 30-minute chat with you? Or can we just do an informational chat?’ I always try to say yes to those requests as I think most people do. So, I have found that most people who have their MBA’s love to take the opportunity to share advice with current students. And I think that that’s a great way to learn more about Gap, and to find out what the different jobs are that are the best fit for MBA grads, and who I can talk to—to get a sense of what those jobs look and feel like, so that when I interview, I can present myself as being the right candidate for your company.”

Inside the classroom, Ruf says you need balance between quantitative class work and strategy in marketing. “Definitely, the coursework in MBA programs should be fairly balanced. If you’re going to go into quant, a large number of your class will be quant-related. But, in any job that you have, the ability to deal with people, the ability to communicate effectively, the ability to lead is very, very important. I think it’s also very important that you also have a very well-rounded program in your first year where you’re picking up these communication skills, these leadership skills, critical thinking skills—other than just quant. It’s the same for marketing—with marketing you need some quant skills with it, too.”

As for leadership, Karseras, the author of “From New Recruit to High Flyer” says, go for the real thing. “Have something on your resume which speaks to a real role of responsibility rather than having something which looks good. You can talk to what you actually did that involved real leadership. For example, if you’re in a club selling wine or say some of these venture groups within schools, you can really talk about your performance and how you increased your recruiting and actually come with real examples of leadership that you’ve shown as opposed to an extracurricular involvement. I think that’s a lot more important and would be a lot more interesting to recruiters.”

Aiken is a recruiter for Gap. “We, absolutely, are looking for strong leadership capacity. And I have found that looking at someone’s extracurricular is one of the best ways to see that. Because students who have founded a club or lead an organization, whether it’s during their business school years or grad years, just have those natural leader characteristics that we love to see. So, I, absolutely, look at extracurricular. We also, frankly, love to see people with unique and well-rounded backgrounds. Among our interns this summer was someone who had spent her entire pre-MBA career in non-profit organizations and another one of our MBA interns was a Canadian Olympic basketball-team player. So, we certainly don’t require anything like that. Because Gap is very much a work-hard-focus-on-work-but-also-have-a-balanced-life-and-enjoy-yourself kind of corporate culture, when we see that people have made that already part of their lives, it’s a good clue that that person might be a good fit, in addition to their academic and technical background.”

More than your abilities, more than why you want an MBA-level job, Waldroop advises you to keep in mind your interests. “The real deal is the interest. Your interest patterns are one of the deepest parts of your personality. They almost never change from year to year to year. Interests are really the energy of a career. You can be good at a lot of things that you’re not interested in doing. You can be motivated by some things because it pays you great money that you’re not interested in doing. But you know what? If it’s paying you a ton of money and you can do it really well, if you’re not interested in it, you’re never going to be interested in it.”

What words of advice do you have for MBA students pursuing their dream job? “Don’t feel too much pressure to get trapped in these early, early cycles of corporate recruiting because, although there are some great companies that participate in the traditional format of corporate recruiting of coming on campus in the fall and conducting on-campus interviews, there are a lot of great companies that don’t do that. So, think about your prior work experience. Think about what you’re learning in your program that’s really turning you on. For example, when I was in my MBA program, I discovered I had a passion for marketing which I sort of never uncovered. And, now, as I move through my career choices, I tend to always pick jobs that have some element of brand building—whether it’s a consumer brand or an employer brand. It’s kind of what I do now. Pay attention to what you love and don’t be scared of the time and energy it may take to pursue a job in a company that’s not on the grid in terms of the traditional corporate recruiting approach. And leverage your alumni network; leverage networks such as the Net Impact Conference for MBA students that pull together companies and students passionate about social responsibility. Think about those avenues that will connect you with the companies that you want to know, and then work on building some personal connection—not just to the recruiters at those companies, but to some of the managers who would be willing to take time to chat with you and give you career advice. It’s not necessary to land an internship with us to get a job, but it, absolutely, does help. We love to have people come in and work with us, so we can kind of evaluate them, and they can evaluate us, and we can see if it’s a great match, mutually.”

Hugh Karseras has a few words for you to take to heart. “Best of luck! A career lasts a long time—don’t lose faith if things don’t happen straight away.”

For more information, advice, and to register for your bi-weekly MBA Podcast, visit mbapodcaster.com. I’m Diana Jordon with MBA Podcaster. Thanks for listening and stay tuned next time when we go wide and give you the 360-degree perspective of applying for and getting your MBA. We’ll cover everything from applications to the GMAT; entrance interviews to how to succeed when you hit campus and land the right job when you graduate. Stay tuned.